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Who said out of chaos comes order?

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Who said out of chaos comes order?

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“Out of chaos comes order” is usually attributed to Friedrich Nietzsche, but I couldn’t find the specific source for the quote. It must be true, though, because it was quoted by Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles, and that of course confirms it. During the argument in the church, there was the following memorable exchange: Reverend Johnson: Order, order. Goddamnit, I said “order”. Howard Johnson: Y’know, Nietzsche says: “Out of chaos comes order.” Olson Johnson: Oh, blow it out your a**, Howard. In Wikipedia’s Latin phrase list, “ordo ab chao” is supposed to be an early motto of Freemasonry. There were no references supporting this posting, so maybe it’s just another theory a la Da Vinci Code?

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Jeremy Horne

One must be clear about the terms in the question: "chaos" and "order".  The first is easier to answer than the second.  In modern physics, "chaos" is potential order (where an outcome is bound up within a set of initial conditions); it is not the same as "disorder".  The popular concept of "disorder" is the lack of relationship of pieces to each other, a jumble of elements, or the lack of pattern.  In physics, "disorder" is entropy, of energy that is dispersed.  Modern discussions can be found literally by the thousands from the Santa Fe Institute to Wikipedia. 

Contemporary views of chaos may be traced back to the Western philosophers Hesiod (8th-7th century BCE) in his Theogeny (origin of the gods) and Lucretius (ca. 99 BC – ca. 55 BCE), The Nature of Things, where everything has its origin in a mass of undifferentiated atoms.  Forceful arguments exist that these ideas are traceable to Asian philosophies.  That the universe emerged from an inchoate singularity may be considered an extension of Hesiod and Lucretius and illustrates that there are deep philosophical constructs that do not vary in time.  Such also supports Plato’s argument of eternal forms.  However, that is another topic to be reserved for later discussions.

"Order" is a trickier concept, but in the most basic way, it can be regarded as a relationship existing among entities.  From this relationship, one can predict future relationships, that is, rely upon a pattern to discern the future.  Such is the core of information. 

Out of chaos comes order and complexity (Lucretius’ idea), but modern physics says that there is increasing randomness in this universe that was born from the singularity, or chaos.  The opposite of order is randomness, where for the latter, it is not possible to predict the relationship(s) among elements; physicists say energy is dispersed.  There is maximum energy in the most ordered states.  Disorder is the same as entropy.  How can one explain the seeming paradox of complexity (our universe) arising from chaos (the singularity) but say there is increasing disorder, or randomness?  Two approaches present themselves.

First, from chaos come self-organizing systems, or “self-organizing criticality”.  From seemingly unpredictable events, such as volcanoes, forest fires, and economic depressions, there emerge patterns.  These “islands of order” (or, patterns of disorder, if you will) then dissipate, or become randomized.  Fractals are examples of patterning emerging from phenomena with no apparent organization.  One must be careful, here.  The unpredictable events, such as the thermodynamics of a fire are not, in themselves random or entropic but processes, or events that are becoming so.  Against all of this is the backdrop of the universe as a whole becoming increasingly disordered.  That is, there is localized re-ordering but overall tendencies to disorder.

Second, one’s order may be another’s randomness.  For example, a student thinks the professor is counting by twos – 2, 4, 6, etc., and dutifully says "8" when asked for the next number in the series.  However, the professor answers "9", thus establishing a different algorithm for generating the series.  At such point, the student’s manner of prediction effectively is random.  It can be said, then, that order and randomness are relativistic concepts.

Now, we have a more complex question built upon “Who said out of chaos comes order?”.  One is not able to discern the nature of chaos, except to say that it is not differentiated; it merely is potential.  Order, as seen above, is not only the hallmark of information but is relativistic.  Now, who says anything about anything, “who” being a product of chaos and a relativistic entity?  It depends upon one’s perspective.

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Paul Rose

Or to refine it into the ten second answer which is what mot people want….order out of chaos is first spoken a long time ago and in those days the word chaos means void. No determinate. Unlimited potential.

Order means all that exists. The system. The universe.

Out of the void of unlimited potential, comes everything.

Thought.

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